Schuyler Brown: 0:01

The danger of modernity is the enchantment with disenchantment. The world built from ignorance is dissolving. And the opportunity then is to begin to create a world from wisdom.

Jayadev Woodford: 0:27

Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a podcast that explores the world of spirituality from a grounded and clear-eyed perspective. I'm your host Jayadev: yoga teacher, Vedic astrologer, attorney, and technologist. Today I'm talking to Schuyler Brown, one of the wisest and most grounded spiritual people I know. She and I always have interesting conversations, so I was grateful to have the chance to find the record one of them. In this episode, we talked about grace; classical Tantra and the descending path; downhome Kentucky spirituality; roots and rooting down; nature and the lost wildness of Europe; desire and magic; attachment; prayer; late-stage capitalism; the importance of community; and the art of embodiment. It was a sort of collaborative riff on the potential of modern spirituality. It was also an episode of misremembered book titles. The Ramana Maharshi book, that Schuyler referred to is called Be As You Are, and the book that I referred to, is called Help. Thanks. Wow. You can find these and all the other things we referenced in the show notes for this episode. Here's my conversation with Schuyler. My guest today is Schuyler Brown, a futurist, facilitator, coach, teacher of embodiment and meditation, and a writer. You can find her at artofemergence.com, and her essays and poems are on medium at SchuylerBrown. And I'll put these links in the show notes as always. So welcome, Schuyler.

Schuyler Brown: 2:23

Thank you, Chad. So good to talk to you. You too, always.

Jayadev Woodford: 2:28

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to get into here. So I think I first met you as a futurist. And then I started to slowly learn more about you over time. And it's been an enjoyable journey. And part of why I was excited to talk to you is because I feel like we we share a lot of common viewpoints and approaches to spirituality, but also have very different approaches, in some ways, too. So I like I like that commonality, but also the differences. So I wanted to start by talking about spirituality. One thing I like to talk about on this podcast is how to define spirituality, especially in this day and age. And I know you have a lot of thoughts on that. So maybe a good place to start then would be how do you think about spirituality? Or how would you define spirituality?

Schuyler Brown: 3:25

Hmm. Such a good, basic question. And I'm realizing I haven't. I'm not sure I've ever defined it. Because,

Jayadev Woodford: 3:37

you know, what's funny is, it's not easy. I've I've struggled with this a little bit myself.

Schuyler Brown: 3:42

I enjoy the challenge. I like the question. It feels provocative. So I'm gonna give it a shot. Let's see what we got. Yeah, um,

Chad Woodford: 3:50

let me just say, Yeah, part of I think the context here is, you know, part of the inspiration for this podcast is that so many people that I know, and that I've talked to tend to be turned off by spirituality, people I respect, you know, people who, who I love and I think that's because so often spirituality has a kind of a bad rap, you know, and so I think that's part of why it's important to define it.

Schuyler Brown: 4:14

Yeah. And also, you and this is one of the things you and I share chat is a background or like, a revolving door with the corporate world, right, we're frequently moving in and out of that space. And that's my background, I had a career in advertising. And so yes, I'm fluent. As Are you in a world that doesn't center spirituality? Right and and so I also have lots of friends and colleagues and acquaintances and family members who don't identify with the the word or would probably react to it. So yeah, I'm feeling that that's one of our points one of our intersection points where we have probably a common experience. Absolutely. So for me spirituality is Well, the thing that's hard to define is that it just permeates everything from me. So it really is a descending of spirit into matter. For me, it's that descending path. And so whether I'm mothering my daughter, or doing work, or sending an email, or a text message, or writing an essay, or writing a poem, or working in the garden, driving the car, whatever I'm doing, I have an a part of my attention on spirit. And maybe that needs definition. But for me, it's that quality of sacredness, the divine, maybe a cosmic perspective, if you don't want to talk about it in terms of divinity, that could be just the presence of something beyond human, for sure. Whether that's nature and all of nature's beings, or the ancestors or subtle realms. It's like the unseen grace, and I love it so much. There's a love there that I'm looking for it, it's like if you, this is new to me. And as I'm saying this, I'm like, wow, this is so true. Wherever I go, it's like a best friend, or, like a true love or a soulmate, like I'm constantly paying attention to whether it's with me or not,

Jayadev Woodford: 6:47

I love that. I love how it's ever-present for you. That's really amazing.

Schuyler Brown: 6:52

It took me a long time to get there. But I do feel that these days, it's it's very rare, there used to be times when I would feel the coming and going. And it was like, you know, I'd have periods where I felt very spiritual, or I felt very connected to spirit. And then there were periods where now I understand that I was probably contracted and or, you know, anxious or nervous or reactive, or like in some part of myself that was having a hard time. And that part of the experience of that contraction was like a cutting off of the flow of that connection to spirit. And so I would feel deserted, I would feel like the magic was gone. And so over years and years, and you know, as time has passed, I have slowly come to understand that it's not gone. It's never gone. And I I feel it most of the time with very rare exceptions.

Chad Woodford: 7:58

Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah, I have a lot of reactions to that. Part of what you're saying reminds me of how I think you know, you and I one thing we share too is this Tantrik background even though yours is more of a Buddhist Tantrik background, and mine's more of a Yoga Tantra. But ultimately, they're the same and and part of what you're saying reminds me of this thing that the topic was believed and talked about, which is that the universe or creation was created as an act of love by the goddess or whatever you want to say. So, so part of what you're saying reminds me of that and how so in that sense, like everything that's happening in your life is really an expression of love from creation, even the pain, you know, even no matter what it is, and so, yeah, like what you're saying, because that's always there. That's that presence is always there. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I can resonate with that too. Because for me, you know, for years now, I've been working with these different tantric goddesses in different ways. And it's been such a great touchstone it's been such a great place to go when I do feel like I need a little support, let's say, and I can just, I can just tune into these these archetypes. And, you know, it's not just an intellectual exercise, you know, you really feel it.

Schuyler Brown: 9:19

Yeah, absolutely. And I find the more you do it, the more you feel it. Right, right. It's like any relationship. It's like, one of the things that I teach, which we'll probably get into is embodiment.

Chad Woodford: 9:31

Yeah. So we'll get to that.

Schuyler Brown: 9:32

And yeah, I mean, one of the very basic lessons or things that you figure out very quickly is that the relationship with the body is like any relationship. So the more love and attention and care and listening that you do with the body, the more it responds, you know, just like any friend would, it's like, Oh, I'm gonna put some energy into this friendship. And you do and it just grows and grows and it's the same with. For me that's it's the same with embodiment. And it's the same with the goddesses or the archetypal energies. At first there is some, I mean, I found an actually, I still find like, just recently I've been working with Lakshmi. Yeah, and for whatever reason, over the course of my life, this is one of my, my, one of the themes that returns for me is this theme around money, and abundance, and like, you know, feeling secure and my financial situation. And so Lakshmi is has been hard for me to access. And I've never really felt close to her until recently. And partly it's because I've been putting in a lot of work. Like I'm really dedicating myself to reaching, you know, creating that connection. And, and she's responding and so it's nice.

Jayadev Woodford: 11:02

Yeah. Yeah, it's a two way street. Absolutely.

Schuyler Brown: 11:06

Especially with the goddesses. The Goddess is really want to be approached. Yeah, they'll they don't, they'll stand back. Like, don't hang back until you make the overture.

Chad Woodford: 11:19

Right, right. Yeah, it's funny. I had an experience recently, where I felt like, spirit had abandoned me, on some level. You know, I had this in my meditation practice in the morning. There's a part at the end, where you tune into the four directions. And there's, in one of the directions, I normally feel this sort of presence, and I didn't feel anything. It reminds me how, you know, at first, I was a little bit like, I felt abandoned, but then I remembered, maybe I haven't been putting as much into cultivating that myself, you know? Yeah. It's a good reminder. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I also like what you're saying about how I think you were saying that there's not a distinction between spirit and matter. And there's one way to put it, as you know, that spirit is manifesting in different ways, subtle body energy, but also matter. Matter is simply just an expression or manifestation of spirit. Right. So I think that's, is that part of what you were saying to?

Schuyler Brown: 12:22

Yeah, I mean, that wasn't exactly what I was saying. But I agree with you. What I was saying, which was probably less accurate, actually was the, the bringing of spirit into matter. But you're right, it it already is spirit, right, in its own way. But I think there's, you know, it's just this I wonder if you've talked about this on the podcast before, but just the, the Tantrik path as a descending has an imminent path, you know, into life into the body onto the earth like this, I you know, I talk about this coming home quality, like, just the full commitment to being with what is arising, whatever it is, in whatever form it takes. So that isness of things and, versus a transcending path where you might go kind of up and out or, like, reach sort of elevated states of consciousness, but less connected to the embodied or the material. world, right? Um, for me, the It wasn't even a preference. It wasn't like I made the choice. It was like the choice was made for me. Um, I mean, gosh, wow, that's a big. I mean, I guess I could say on on the surface of it, you know, for one thing being born into a female gendered body. And I'll just say that to say that I gave birth. And so, you know, I've been in yoga for a long time, as, as you know, and as you have, and there were definitely, early on I was, I liked the ascetic path I like I liked a lot of the aspects of some of the yogas that I don't want to say deny the body, but it's more about mastering or controlling the body. And I felt how powerful some of those practices are. And then I became pregnant and went through the birthing process and became a mother which is its own form, like massive initiation. And in that process, I was just like, whoa, the body, the body, like the sacredness of this body, and I just felt that it had wisdom, way, way beyond my conscious Mind or knowing and, and then I got really interested in the feminine, the divine feminine and, you know, was just more prepared. I mean, for one thing, when you have a child, you're sort of called to be here. You know, you're there's like, there's not a lot of transcending I could do so

Chad Woodford: 15:21

That's got to be one of the more grounding experiences in life.

Schuyler Brown: 15:24

Very, very grounding. That's exactly right. It's like, you know, I would sometimes, like start to transcend, and then so, so I kind of had to find another way. And that was a blessing.

Chad Woodford: 15:37

Yeah, and we were talking about to gets to a couple things. But one of my favorite topics on the podcast is his spiritual, spiritual ego and spiritual bypass, and how to how to avoid it. You know, and I think what you're talking about, and by the way, I haven't covered the ascending and descending path so much in the podcast, but I would love to, but part of what you're talking about, though, I think is, you know, by by being more, you know, in your body by me being more present, and, you know, in the material world, it's maybe a way to more easily avoid this spiritual bypass trap, right, like, you're less likely to identify with this, you know, elevated being who's above it all and all that stuff, right?

Schuyler Brown: 16:19

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think are you I'm just curious, just to see if I understand the question, is the question, Is it harder to spiritual bypass when you're practicing the embodied?

Chad Woodford: 16:35

Yeah, I guess that's the question. Yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 16:38

That's a really cool question. Yeah. Um, this is so fun. Um,

Chad Woodford: 16:47

well, cuz for me,

Schuyler Brown: 16:48

I mean, your experience?

Chad Woodford: 16:50

Yeah, I think there's been like, in my experience, practicing and being a yogi and teaching yoga and living in a spiritual world. And, you know, being in community in India, and all these things. So many people on the path are, yeah, they're ungrounded. Or they think that spirituality means that you can't enjoy life or that you can't, you know, have fun and all these different things. And I think what I love about tantra, especially, is that they're all about the sensual world and using that as a spiritual practice.

Schuyler Brown: 17:25

Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, as you were speaking, my mind went to my roots in Kentucky. And Kentucky is this really beautiful state and very peaceful place, and it produced people like Wendell Berry, like one of the great sages of our time, and a farmer. And that's like, my grandfather was very much that type. And growing up there, you know, I was experiencing very embodied deeply embodied people all the time, because they were working with the earth because they were working the land, and they had that kind of connection to the earth and to the land that we miss. So often in a, you know, in a faster paced, or maybe an urban environment or whatever.

Jayadev Woodford: 18:17

I grew up in New York. So yeah, not that experience so much.

Schuyler Brown: 18:23

Well, I think it was really formative for me to experience people who would never call themselves quote, unquote, spiritual, but were in contact with spirit and had spirit in their lives all the time through their connection with the earth. It was funny when I remember when my grandfather like, late in his life, was an adult, I was a yogi and practice I was practicing in living in New York City and practicing yoga in New York City, and I had that book Ramana Maharshi. Hmm. What is the great book by him? It's like,

Chad Woodford: 19:02

"Who are you?"[Be Who You Are]

Schuyler Brown: 19:05

Yeah, I was gonna say I am that or, okay. We have to find that one. But anyway, that was the book I was carrying around with me. I was reading. And I took it to Kentucky. I was spending the night with my grandparents and I went to go take a nap one afternoon and left it on the table. And when I woke up, my grandfather was sitting at the kitchen table reading that book, oh, my god love it. And I walked into the room and my first responses like, Oh, God, Oh, God. And I guess because I thought he would find it very foreign or strange. And he looked up from the book, and he said, You know, I agree with most everything he's saying, and, and that's when I really realized my grandfather was a great yogi.

Chad Woodford: 19:54

Right, right. Well, it's the perennial philosophy, right? Like if you boil all the spiritual traditions down They all basically say the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. You so you were probably embarrassed at first. A little bit about the book. Yeah. And then yeah, that's nice. You got you're able to connect with him on that level. Yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 20:15

Yeah, it was actually very beautiful, very deep. I mean, like, like, it's a memory that comes back from me very fond memory. And it kind of pulled the pieces of my life together, like a couple of, I don't know, maybe you can identify with this. But there was a lot of a lot of my young life as I was exploring these practices, they were very foreign to my birth family. Yeah. And so to have my grandfather sort of BLESS, you know, the, the practice was really special for me. It created a bridge that meant a lot to me.

Chad Woodford: 20:55

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to grow up with a Catholic mother, but then a father who is isn't was a more of a Taoist, you know, and so I had those two different influences. And so it's nice because he and I can connect on that level,

Schuyler Brown: 21:12

to the Taoists are the best, they can connect with everyone.

Jayadev Woodford: 21:16

Right? Right. They're so neutral, they're so true, the Way...

Chad Woodford: 21:56

What you were saying also reminded me of a an aspect of spirituality, or the path that I've been exploring more recently, and I think you and I have talked about briefly, is the work of Bill Plotkin, and SoulCraft. And what I like about his model, especially more recently, is that he has this kind of four direction approach to spirituality, where, you know, yoga, and meditation and all that stuff is only on one direction, so only one of the four, right and so it's it's really caused me to broaden my understanding of spirituality and to think about these other ways, that of being spiritual, that he talks about that, I think, when I when I think about these things, I always think of you actually, because you've got sort of cultivating your wild, indigenous archetype, which is one of the practices or one of the directions. And then there's this like, beloved Muse archetype that he works with, and, and then there's this nurturing sort of adult or this sort of nurturing king or queen archetype. And so I like I like that there's not just the sage, but there's also these other archetypes. And with even within the Eastern prong, which is the sage, there's also the trickster, which is another important archetype, I think. So anyways, what you were saying just reminded me of how useful it's been in my life to think about spirituality more broadly in this way.

Schuyler Brown: 23:21

Yeah, I mean, it really is. It's really everywhere. And you know, one of the things that I've been, I love that about Bill Plotkin, I've got that book here. And I've been, I just looked at it the other day, I was like, I have got to read this book. Because every time it's referenced, it is so aligned with the way I see and feel things. And so I know, I'm gonna love it. What you just said, I love to, particularly the indigenous piece, right? That's something that is really calling me. I mean, it has been for a while, but the call is sort of getting louder, to not only route down and into the earth, to the land where I am now and even into my ancestral land, like the Kentucky roots, which I have been doing for years, but then going back to my, like, Celtic or Anglo Saxon, like, where my people came from, like, Where was the indigeneity? Many, many, many generations ago. And one of the reasons this feels important is because as you mentioned, I have studied the Tibetan Buddhist Tantra for a long time and I feel very close to it and it feels very home, like home to me. But there's really an important I think it's really important practice to know like one of the things that is draws me To the Tibetan Tantra is that it has that indigenous piece it has the Bön right? Yes. So there is a shamanic piece. And there is this. I don't even let's like that you called it wildness, which is really a great word. It's the untamed, right. It's just that pure, raw, elemental aspect of existence. And that was something that like, as soon as I felt that in the Tibetan Tantra was like home. Yes. And I still feel that way. But there's, you know, I can feel that there's a way my own Northern European ancestry has been denied. And one of my teachers, John Churchill, has been talking a lot about this, and he's English. And he says, you know, in the West, we really need to reclaim these indigenous wisdoms, because they were totally wiped out, like, for the most part. And for me, that calls back like the witch trials, it calls back like, lost folk medicine, folk beliefs, and it's just something I haven't yet spent a lot of time studying. And I'm really excited to get into it. I just got a book on a Celtic goddess called the Morrigan. And she's like this incredibly fierce, like fearsome goddess who reminds me a little bit of Durga reminds me a little bit of Inanna. And I'm just enjoying knitting some of the European indigenous traditions into these eastern practices.

Chad Woodford: 26:42

Absolutely. Yeah. And for those who don't know, the bone, people were in Tibet, before. Yoga essentially was brought to Tibet, from India. So they were the original people of Tibet, and they had a shamanic more of a shamanic tradition, right. So, yeah, I like what you're saying, because there's a lot there, actually. And, you know, so I like what you're saying, because I may be an optimist. And I may be a little bit unrealistic, but I do feel like on some level, we're, we're living through the denouement, you know, the end of a very long sort of dark time, that you're kind of referencing, where Europe was taken over by, you know, the patriarchy and the mind, and pure reason, and dogma and all these things, you know, coming out of who knows where originally, maybe, you know, the Roman tradition, but even before that, coming through the Roman tradition, and then coming through Christianity and all these things, but you know, done stamping out all these beautiful traditions, these pagan traditions, and it's, yeah, I think for, for me, I don't think about these things very often. But I do have primarily Irish ancestry. And it was funny, I went to speak, it's funny, we're recording close to Thanksgiving, because a few years ago, I went to the 50th anniversary of the takeover of Alcatraz in San Francisco. And they had a beautiful ceremony where all the indigenous people from all over the world were invited to come in all participate in this drum circle. And so most of the tribes did send somebody to this beautiful ceremony that happened to sunrise. It was freezing, it was like 40 degrees or something. And what really surprised me was they had people from Ireland participating in their traditional Celtic garb, you know, and I was like, I was like, Oh, yeah. I don't think about that very often, you know, but it's absolutely part of part of that. I mean, there. Yeah, there are suppressed people on an island and yeah, so anyways, I think that's fascinating.

Schuyler Brown: 28:54

Yeah, yeah, me too. It's been a it's a fun exploration. Yeah, and probably an important part of the healing that needs to happen. For mean, for a lot of us, but Western white people with regards to connection to earth, you know, like really feeling grounded, as we said before, really feeling our roots, you know, and with that comes the sense of stewardship of responsibility, the interconnectedness with all natural things, and when you don't have that as we haven't, and we've been sort of uprooted and disconnected from our heritage and our past and therefore the earth. You extract, you hurt you Objectify. You know, it's like the Earth is no longer sort of a living, breathing, being and I think that's, you know, I think that's part of what has drawn me to the Eastern traditions where that is still alive. Where Gaia, you know, in whatever form in the Buddhist tradition Lochana. You know, where the earth is still alive in the consciousness of the people. Yeah. As a living being. And, and not and that's not an idea. There's a felt sense of that.

Chad Woodford: 30:25

Yeah. Yeah. I think when you lose that connection to nature, I, you start, obviously, you stop listening, and you can't hear what nature is trying to say, you know, and, you know, I mean, it's like Terence McKenna, I think said, "nature is talking to us. This is not a metaphor," you know? Oh, yeah. Yes.

Schuyler Brown: 30:44

It's not a metaphor. That's right.

Chad Woodford: 30:47

Yeah, you know, and if you've had these experiences, like with plant medicine, or whatever, even spiritual, you know, practices, like yoga can do this, too. You can actually have a dialogue and you do have the direct experience that nature is this living, breathing intelligence that is communicating with us. Yeah, right.

Schuyler Brown: 31:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I think we'll get into talking about is magic. And magic is, in a way, the alchemy, the elemental wisdom, of all indigenous traditions. The Tantra has its own alchemy and its own magic. And so getting in touch with the Earth is essential to working with

Chad Woodford: 31:40

magic. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 31:43

And why would we want to work with magic?

Chad Woodford: 31:46

Looking at let's get into that, you know, but I do want to say, before we do that I do I want to circle back and just re emphasize that I think cultivating our wildness is like one of the one of the most essential things we can be doing right now. And I feel like that's a lot of what you're doing, or even if you like, I think about that, when I see your Instagram posts with your beautiful mandalas in nature, you know, that kind of thing. So yes, it's so important.

Schuyler Brown: 32:10

Yeah, that's a good question. How do you cultivate your wildness

Chad Woodford: 32:15

I've been, I've been spending more time in nature. And I've been doing not to be not to make this podcast all about Bill Plotkin. But you have been doing some practices. You know, he has these specific practices in his books about, you know, being in nature, like there's this, I'll give you one example. He has this one called the mandorla, where and"mandorla," I think is just Italian for almond, right. But you go into nature somewhere and you find a sacred spot. Maybe you use your intuition, like Carlos Castaneda was instructed by Don Juan, you know, to find his seat, in the books. And it's that that kind of process, you kind of tune into the area, and then you find your spot. And then you create a two concentric circles that overlap to create a almond shape in the middle, so that the circles are quite large, large enough. So you can sit or stand at either one, and then sit or stand in the middle and that and then almond shape. And what you do is you you go into one side. And the purpose of this practice is to to resolve what seems like a polarity in your life. And so you go to one side and you advocate vociferously for that side, and then you go to the other side, and you advocate vociferously for that side, and then you sit in the middle, and you don't try to resolve or you know, synthesize or anything conceptual, you just sit in the middle, and you let the process change you. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's maybe something you can do anywhere, but you know, it should be a nature. And that's one way for me at least, of cultivating this or just being in nature and, and listening deeply. Or, you know, finding something in nature, you know, even a tree stump that seems to carry some kind of like, energy or personality or something, you know, maybe communing with that. Mm hmm. Things like that.

Schuyler Brown: 34:21

Yeah. I mean, I think it's worth saying because you're in New York City right now. And I lived there for 20 years. And it's a city that I love very much, but those mandalas that I make. I started making them in New York City, partly because I was really desperately wanting to be more connected to nature and made them in the public parks like in Prospect Park. Yeah, I mean, all over the place in Brooklyn. And yeah, so it just just to any listener who lives in a city like it doesn't, you don't have to move to the country. You necessarily or even, like, have to go to a wild quote unquote wild place there parts of Prospect Park that are very wild. I found them. And, and you can do, but yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I don't you know, I think it's um it's Yeah, I had such a deep communion with nature even in the midst of New York City. So yeah,

Jayadev Woodford: 35:27

well, there's no reason to, to create an artificial distinction, right. I mean, there's nature everywhere. And maybe any minute. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Chad Woodford: 36:00

So let's get to let's get to magic. And I don't know, if I was noticing some of your recent work. You were talking a lot about desire, and magic, right. So I'm curious. Yeah. What are your thoughts on on that? Ah, or just pick one. Yeah. Tell me about magic.

Schuyler Brown: 36:21

I know. It's really it starts with desire. I think that's really the the starting place. Yeah, I just recognized in my own life, you know, it's funny when you have a practice, and in my experience, it's like, things enter my awareness, usually in a pretty conceptual way, or, you know, a new idea will come through the teachings, and then it's an idea for me for a while. And then something happens, or I begin to relate to this, the insight in a way where it kind of drops into my body. And I'm like, Oh, okay. So this is what happened with attachment. Okay, in Buddhism, like, this is one of the root root poisons, basically, is attachment. And, and it's the root of suffering, it's, it's a big problem. And so I known this for a very long time. But it was only this spring that I really understood how attachment was, first of all, how present it was, for me pretty much all day long, how I was constantly attached to people behaving a certain way to my daughter, you know, or I was attached to certain outcomes I was attached to, you know, things that I wanted to happen. And so, in particular, I wanted to house the spring. And I found this house, I was house hunting, and this house was so perfect. And I took my daughter to see it. And we both fell in love with it. And I began to practice some magic. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I was just praying and meditating, and doing everything in my power to manifest this house for us. I even I'm embarrassed to admit it, but took something from the farm where I live here. I took a rock and some water from this farm, and went and planted it on the land of this house, and was asking the land here to talk to the land there to, you know, ensure that we get this house. And then of course, I did the obvious thing, like I wrote a beautiful letter when we put in our bid for the house. And I was so sure I was going to get this house I had moved in, in my mind. I had visualized where the furniture was going where the art was going. And then we got outbid. And I was devastated. I was surprised. I was shocked. I was angry. And it really, really hit me very, very hard. And I ended up talking to one of my teachers at that time and telling him the story. And he said, Well, you black magic to your way out of the black magic to the house away. Basically he's like, you can mess around like that. He's like you wanted it too much. You were attached to the outcome and I could really feel what he was talking about. And I could feel the intensity of my attachment. And I think I was it was a lesson for me that moment where I began to get curious about what does it look like? To want something because desire is important and natural, and really a beautiful guide in life desire is not the problem. But it was. Right. We were born from desire that so exactly very, very tantrik. Yes, we were born out of desire, and we, it drives us and it points the way it's so so good. But that attachment piece was. So my question for myself was what is desire without attachment? Yeah. And so I just began to look at that in my own life and really initiate what I call a self study. So I'm regularly initiating these self studies, and I'll journal and I'll meditate and I'll walk and I'll observe and dream. Yeah, so So yeah, I learned a lot about my own relationship to desire.

Chad Woodford: 41:00

Right, right. It's funny, because I feel like part of the attachment maybe came out of the fact that you had moved that like clod of dirt or whatever. Was it? Was it a rock? Was it rock? Raw rock? Yeah, it was, yeah, move the rock. And it's like, Man, I move the rock! Like, I did all the things. You know, why didn't I get the place? You know?

Schuyler Brown: 41:18

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I was so invested body mind ritual. Right. I was like, Wait a minute. I'm I did the magic. Like it was black magic.

Chad Woodford: 41:34

Yes. Black magic. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, little side note. Way, way back, you know, I think 1000s of years ago in common law, property law in England. When you bought a house, you would put a clump of dirt, like on the house? To finalize the transaction? So from the land? Yeah. From the land. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Interest anyways. Right? You're reminding me of what you were saying? Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, attachment is such a challenging practice.

Schuyler Brown: 42:08

Well, the other thing I realized, I mean, what I what I learned was that the first thing I needed to do was purify my desire. And that that practice was pretty deep. Because what I began to understand as I investigated was that a lot of my desires were arising from wounding, basically, they were arising from trauma. So I want security of this house, you know, why? Because fundamentally, some part of me feels insecure, or, you know, I want whatever this job is, you know, or whatever the project was. And it's like, Oh, interesting. Some part of my ego is attached to that, or even we all know, this one, with partners or romantic partners, like the desire there really needed to be investigated, because there's a lot of shadow and what draws us absolutely. to people. And there's so many lessons there. But yeah, that was just a that was kind of a wake up call for me the recognition that what I was feeling as desire, there is a pure desire, desire. Yes, but many of the desires I was feeling and responding to in my life were coming from places that weren't poll or wise, they were wanting for reasons that needed to be addressed.

Chad Woodford: 43:36

Yes, yes, I think I think you're highlighting two important things. First of all, I think there's a misunderstanding, you know, with Buddhism or yoga or anything that that desire is the problem. You know, like, I think I think the Buddha is even miss quoted as saying that desire is the first problem when it actually he was just saying, I think that, you know, it's actually our attachment, which is what you're saying, or, you know, it's suffering that comes out of that interplay. So I think that's the first thing it's important to remind everyone is that desire is not the problem. Desire is, like you were saying before, a huge part of life. And it's like, the whole universe is creating out of desire. So, so that's, that's a good distinction. And then I like how you say there's this sort of impure desire, as in contrast with, you know, pure desire. It's like, there's two kinds of sort of problematic desire, right? There's the desire that comes from trauma, like you're saying, and there's desire that comes from simple conditioning, right? Like, for example, you might think that you want to be like a bohemian painter or something, because that's this sort of one of these archetypes that comes out of our society of like, how to be free or how to be happy or whatever. But maybe you don't actually want that it's just a desire that was like planted in you but because you watched a movie or because of a family member or something, right. So it's like, part of in my mind, part of the reason we practice is because then it helps us to, to cut through these, these sort of misguided desires and identify the authentic, you know, spiritual desires, let's say or

Schuyler Brown: 45:11

Yeah. so beautifully put Yes, absolutely. I agree. And the cut through is exactly right. It's that sword, you know that, that slicing through the illusion? Yeah, and I mean, one other thing that I learned was that, I mean, again, culturally, so many of our desires are taboo, or, you know, not handled very well as children. And so, really young, I learned and probably many of us learned that what I want doesn't matter, actually. And so I think as adults, now there's a lot of reclaiming of our desire, like so much of what we really, really want in our heart of hearts was squashed and not always out of cruelty. It was just neglect, or it was just, you know, ignorance or, you know, our own parents had their own traumatic upbringing, like we have this the cycle that we're finally trying to attend to, I think. But that's something that I've really watched with my daughter is I'm very attentive to her authentic desires. And I try to acknowledge them if I don't have to indulge all of them. But at least I acknowledge, I know you really, really want that.

Chad Woodford: 46:42

Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Schuyler Brown: 46:47

exactly. And so, so yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a bit of a mess. When you start to look at where your desires are coming from. Yeah. But a really cool mess, you know, and it can be untangled. I will say that, that it can, it can really, you can really get very clear on your yeses and noes. It's like, I want that. I don't want that. And I'm not attached to it. I also,

Jayadev Woodford: 47:18

sometimes you have to follow through on these desires to learn, you know, that that wasn't the thing or to not be attached to least Yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 47:26

Yeah. What are you saying we need to make mistakes?

Chad Woodford: 47:33

Yeah, yeah, I certainly made my fair share. Yeah. Well, so I'm curious. Maybe this brings us to the magic part. But curious about prayer, too, because it sounds like the way you were describing this, this house process reminded me a little bit of sort of a prayer. And it's because part of it is that I've been working with this more myself recently, I read this book by Anne Lamott on the power of prayer. I think it's called like, Sorry, Please, Thank You, or something like that [Help Thanks Wow]. But she talks about different types of prayers. But you know, I grew up Catholic, and I had a very complicated relationship to the idea of prayer. And it's only recently that I've started to explore it again. And I, you know, I did recently, intentionally sort of start praying for this specific thing that I wanted, and then it seemed to actually happen, because of that. I mean, who knows? But so I'm curious about your relationship to that. And if that's what you were talking about with this house? And, and if that ties into to magic at all?

Schuyler Brown: 48:37

Ah, that's so beautiful. I'm so happy you brought up prayer. Because I think it's one of the aspects of spirituality that doesn't get discussed as much at least in our circles in the yogic circles, right? Maybe in Christian circles, it still does. Yeah, yeah. I think prayer is an extremely profound practice that I've also been trying to reclaim because I wasn't really properly taught. Maybe that happened to you, too, was like, expected and prescribed in a way. And so I rebelled against it a little bit. Yeah.

Chad Woodford: 49:26

I also think that prayer, at least in the way I was taught as a child was this sort of like overused, frivolous thing that you would do to to satisfy all these selfish desires, you know, and you certainly don't want to be going around praying for the satisfaction of all these petty desires, right?

Schuyler Brown: 49:43

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, for me recently, when I'm doing prayer or in prayer, there's a lot of gratitude. You know, it's more of a giving. Thanks, then And a humbling kind of I mean, I think that's the other thing about prayer is the kind of the, the bowing of the head and the, the humility. Yes. In the prayer. So humility, gratitude. And the selfless, right, like how beautiful it is to pray for other people's well being that other people get what they need, or yes, yeah, I think I think prayer is a really potent and important tool. And I think it this is my old trend spotter. My the futurist in me, is like, I think this is the next big trend and spirituality

Chad Woodford: 50:49

is prayer. Yeah. Interesting.

Schuyler Brown: 50:53

Yeah, I mean, I pray. And I have my own, it's very personal. And I think that's another thing about prayer that's very, can be very sweet is how deeply personal it's very intimate. Right? It's like, between you and your God, or you and whoever it is you're talking to, could be an ancestor. You know, and, and so, you know, for me, like, I'll go into the heart, and it's just this very intimate, very direct communication. And I think we're back to that two way street. Mm hmm. You know, the more you do it, the more you open those channels, the more things flow.

Chad Woodford: 51:38

Yes, yeah. And for me, it takes place within the larger container of these other practices. I'm doing like a mantra japa practice or something that's sort of, you know, showing some dedication and devotion and some surrender. sort of around the prayer, yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 52:21

I guess I haven't really gotten to the magic part. But it's such a funny word. I think it's kind of loaded. And so I back away from it a little bit. But

Chad Woodford: 52:34

it's a big word.

Schuyler Brown: 52:35

It's a very big word. And I guess there are a couple things I would like to say about it, or share and see where you're at with it. One is sort of recognizing our ability to create worlds, like really becoming masterful magicians in a way. Yes. Like, in the Tantra, as I understand it, it's like, you know, first, the first you have to dissolve the world created from ignorance. You know, you have to kind of like work through in a methodical way. How what I think is reality really isn't? It's like Bob Thurman says he's like, the problem isn't that we think the world is real. The problem is that we think it's really real. Okay, it's not really real part. It's that concreteness. You know, it's this like, it's like in life, you know, up to a certain point on the path. It's like, you're really sort of walking through this world as if it was concrete, and you're a little bit a victim of your circumstances. Yeah. And so, you know, the practice helps to dissolve the really realness of your situation of your circumstances of this, you know, I'm knocking on the table of the concreteness of things until you get to in the Buddhist, you know, in Buddhism, you'll get to emptiness, right? And then from there, once the illusion is dispelled, then you start to create, then you start to build worlds from wisdom. And it feels to me like that's what's happening for us on the collective level. Now, this is my lens, because this is my mythology. Right, as Jung says, What myth are you living in? This is one of the myths I'm living in, which is that the world built from ignorance is dissolving. Yes. And the opportunity then is to begin to create a world from wisdom. Yes, and that's, that's for me. That's where the magic comes in. And that's where I want to be a very very skillful, very wise, very. You know, it's like I said in a recent essay like that question from The Wizard of Oz, are you a good witch? Or are you a bad witch? I want to be a good witch.

Chad Woodford: 55:14

Yes.

Schuyler Brown: 55:15

So then I think that the call is for many, many, many of us to recognize the power of the imagination, the power of our desire, as you said earlier, Chad, you're so right, the world is created from our desire. Yeah. So what is it that we want? We need to get really super clear about that.

Chad Woodford: 55:34

But yeah, I totally agree. And I think this topic is, is very juicy, but also very controversial in a way because it kind of goes back to this very sort of materialist worldview that we're still living in. So I think most people are still caught in this right. And they, if you say magic, they think, oh, that's something I think that's something we did away with a while back. Right? We don't do that anymore. And I think part of the so part of the process, and I talked a lot about this in my episode about astrology, but part of the process is helping people to get back in touch with that. The magic I guess, or you know, back in touch with this, you know, and sold world that that you and I have experienced, you know, and so that's a big part of what I you know, what motivates me to share practices and to have this podcast and all of it, you know? Yeah, so,

Schuyler Brown: 56:31

so beautiful. I'm so glad you said that. It's so true. The in sold world I was just listening to and I highly recommend. James Hellman's audio book. It's actually his lectures on alchemy.

Jayadev Woodford: 56:46

Okay, you know, it's funny, I, I've had him on my list for a long time. So yeah, the motivation I need.

Schuyler Brown: 56:52

He this, I can send it to you. But this this lecture that he's giving over a few days, they recorded it, it's a terrible recording. Okay. You can't hear when people ask questions. It's, it's so the quality is so poor, but his knowledge, his wisdom about alchemy is so insanely cool. And he talks a lot about the crowning of the world, the installment, you know, he says, He's talking about the environmental movement, and he says, you know, what, why would you save? Like, we have to see the magic in the world, we have to see the divinity or in the world, or it's not worth saving.

Chad Woodford: 57:33

Right. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's funny because I feel like, between Carl Jung and quantum physics and the psychedelic movement, you know, we've been, to some extent living in this magical world for the past century, but it's like it's not evenly distributed. You know, nobody, not everyone has gotten the memo, you know. So yeah, I think it's important to try to spread the word.

Schuyler Brown: 57:56

Yeah, absolutely. One of my John Churchill, who I mentioned earlier, a teacher of mine, he says the problem with modernity is the disenchantment. The enchantment with disenchantment? Yeah. Yeah, actually, I have to say he actually said, "the danger of modernity is the enchantment with disenchantment."

Chad Woodford: 58:17

Yeah. Yeah. And I think people are, it's, it's, it's very disconcerting to live in a world that is meaningless and random. And I think that that instills in people this sort of like, you know, unconscious bitterness, almost or like, you know, like a feeling like a disappointment. And then I think that's what feeds the enchantment, because you're like, Well, I, I'm going to buy into this materialist, modern worldview, because then I don't know in some way that feeds like it satisfies that like dissatisfaction in a way where you're like, well, it's all meaningless. We proved it. So let's just accept that and like, you know, try to have fun or whatever. And, yeah,

Schuyler Brown: 59:02

yeah, I think you're right to point to the bitterness and then I would also add the numbness. Yeah. That is trauma. Yeah, really, like so many people are really very dissociated from their experience, from what's going on in the world, and pretty numbed out. And they think that that's normal. And I know this because I know my own experience of this, like early on when I started to really feel my feelings. Like when I understood that that was something I needed to do to heal. Yeah. I was struck by how often I would check in with myself and I was really not feeling anything. Right. And it wasn't that nothing was there. It was just that I was very numb that there were layers of ice basically in my system. I was frozen. I think that's a big part of what keeps the scientific materialism this this view, this modernist view in place is that a lot of people really can't feel. Yeah, the magic.

Chad Woodford: 1:00:12

Yeah, you're you're describing that sort of icy numbness is like the story of my life in a sense, you know, up until, you know, a decade ago or something, but But yeah, I mean, it's just funny. I think, you know, I've talked about this before in the podcast, but I think one of the main, you know, entry points for healing humanity is just helping people to learn how to feel their feelings properly. You know, we're not taught how to do this. And it reminds me of when I was first starting to learn how to do this. I was in this Ayahuasca ceremony. And I remember I was talking to one of the facilitators, and I asked her, I said, so your do you mean, like, like, people just go around, like, feeling their feelings all the time? Like, you know, like, kind of incredulous. You know, like, really? It sounds crazy, you know? Yeah. It was such a foreign idea to me at the time. Yeah. So,

Schuyler Brown: 1:01:08

chat, it's still foreign to a lot of people, right?

Jayadev Woodford: 1:01:11

I mean, the process, I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm like an expert, or anything. But no, I

Schuyler Brown: 1:01:16

am actually going to put myself in the expert category. Because it was, it's been very hard one, I do go around feeling my feelings all the time. Somebody recently was, I was doing, having conversation with this guy. And he was talking about some people we know, who are public thinkers. And I was like, I think I'm a public feeler like that. So yeah, but the thing is, it is crazy. It actually looks crazy. It's not normal. And, you know, I've finally sort of owned it as an identity, you know, like public feeler because it's, it's what we got to do. Like, we have to normalize and learn how to be with each other in the variety of our emotions and the unpredictability of them. Yeah, it's intense, yeah.

Chad Woodford: 1:02:42

I feel like, so much of the corporate world is sort of set up to squash emotion or to not have space for it. Right. And so I want to talk, I think there's two more things, at least I want to talk about, in that one of them is bridging the corporate world and spirituality. That's a topic that both of us really love and and are passionate about. And the other one is something that you teed up earlier, which is the kind of the burgeoning wisdom or consciousness revolution that's happening. And I wanted to, I think those things are connected. So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there and see what you think.

Schuyler Brown: 1:03:22

So I'm a little bit bearish on spirituality in the corporate world right now.

Chad Woodford: 1:03:29

Okay, okay. Well, then we can we can skip that one. No, no, I'll just skip

Schuyler Brown: 1:03:34

it. But we should talk about why I don't think they're compatible...

Chad Woodford: 1:03:38

interesting. I want you I want to hear okay, I want to hear this. Because, yeah, because I want to go back when you and I first met, I think I used to say that what I want to do is I want to bridge those two worlds, you know, technology, corporate, whatever. And spirituality. Yeah. And I haven't thought deeply about it recently. But I was Yeah. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that.

Schuyler Brown: 1:04:03

I think it's possible to integrate spirituality and technology. In fact, I think it's imperative. And I think it's possible to integrate spirituality and I'm going to call it commerce, just so we're, I don't want to call it business. Because the thing that is incompatible with spirituality is capitalism, late stage capitalism that we have right now. Yeah. They just I tried for too long. Um, capitalism, co ops, and manipulates and it just consumes anything in its path towards growth and towards profit. And there's, I mean, even mindfulness And meditation, like so much of the mindfulness that people do in, you know, in a corporate space is around stress reduction, and health, mental health, etc. So that they can be more productive, more insightful, healthier, not missing days of work, etc. Like there's always an agenda with capitalism. And so I just finally about a year ago, I just, I just had to come I recognize the fact that they are incompatible. There is no such thing is conscious capitalism. Important point? Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Well, then let's pause on that important point.

Chad Woodford: 1:05:43

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really important. I, I agree with you. And reminds me of it familiar with this pop philosopher, Slovaj Žižek. Yeah, he talks about that, right? He talks about how capitalism is almost like a blob, or a Borg and it just absorbs everything, you know, you. You say, Oh, we're gonna save the rainforest. And it's like, yeah, we're gonna save the rainforest. You know, that'll be a great marketing thing, you know, and it just absorbs everything and uses it for those purposes. Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's something there. I think you're really onto something.

Schuyler Brown: 1:06:17

I think we have to, like we really have to accept and admit that, because we're prolonging the agony. And we don't really have time. I don't think to keep up with this. This farce, really, this this we're deluding ourselves.

Chad Woodford: 1:06:43

I agree.

Schuyler Brown: 1:06:44

And I'm not I'm not willing to play the game anymore. Like I'm not willing to compromise on my values. And, and so I've kind of just stopped trying with the capitalist world. My friend David and I, just about six months ago, maybe less we had on Clubhouse we had a funeral for capitalism. I love the

Chad Woodford: 1:07:13

This is David Sauvage right? yeah, David Sauvage

Schuyler Brown: 1:07:15

and I, so we had this funeral for capitalism, and it came up. I mean, it was just an idea that came to both of us because we were coming to the same recognition, we're like, we had been doing what we were calling corporate shamanism, like trying to bridge healing and corporate world, and we just kept hitting a wall. And so we hit the wall enough times were like, it's dead, like capitalism has to die. So we had this funeral. And it was really like performance art, it was really beautiful. And we really eulogized capitalism for all the good that it has done. And then we laid it to rest. And something happened in that process. Like it actually worked in me. Well, like it actually died, capitalism died. Anyway, so I'm not interested in trying to bridge spirituality, and business so much anymore.

Chad Woodford: 1:08:08

As we're talking, I'm remembering this idea that I think there's some kind of deep connection between capitalism and materialism as a worldview. And it's like, they come out of the same tradition, and they're so deeply connected. And it's like, I think the process of us waking up out of this nightmare of materialism is also a process maybe of dismantling capitalism, to some extent, yeah. So interconnected in my mind.

Schuyler Brown: 1:08:37

I agree. I agree how to do that. I'm not sure. Yeah.

Chad Woodford: 1:08:40

Well, this gets to so that it gets to the other part of my question, I guess, which is, you know, maybe this is just wishful thinking. But people like Peter Russell and others have talked about this consciousness revolution that's taking place, you know, going back a decade or so. And I liked this idea. And if you look, in certain places, it feels like it is true, and it is happening. But at the same time, it feels like the momentum, or the inertia of the way we used to live is so strong that it's like how can it possibly how could it possibly happen, right? And the idea, though, is that there's a revolution potentially happening, where consciousness and spirituality is going to revolutionize the way we live as much as the Industrial Revolution, or the information age, that kind of thing. So, so yeah, I just, I wonder what you think about that, because sometimes I'm optimistic about it. And sometimes it feels like, you know, the pandemic, for example. I thought it was gonna be an opportunity for us to finally like, do away with a lot of these unhealthy ways of living and treating the planet and all this stuff. And it seems like there's this very strong pole to go back to like normal, right? So I don't know what do you think about that?

Schuyler Brown: 1:10:03

I'm feeling Yeah. I don't think anything is guaranteed. Sure, right now. Like, I think we're actually it's up to us. And it's up to us in practice, like, what action we take, and how we take it and where we take it from right now?

Jayadev Woodford: 1:10:33

Yeah, well, what is the most essential action that we can take?

Schuyler Brown: 1:10:48

I mean, I think for me, it comes back to this building a new world from wisdom. And what that's going to take is those of us who are on a path, whether it's spiritual or ethical, or I wouldn't say humanist could because I think it has to be beyond human. It's like, including all living beings, all my relations. Yes, I'm have to, like double down. Like, the message that I'm getting right now is that the, the light, the forces of light, are, it's time to organize, and coordinate efforts and act. And, and so I think the first act is commitment. Like, you know, in the Buddhist path, you have the bodhisattva vow, right? So there comes a time when you truly recognize that our destinies are interrelated, that we are not separate, distinct beings. And so I'm going to do everything I can in service of all of us getting there, like all of us getting to salvation. And it's a vow for a reason, because there's something sacred about about commitment, right. And there's an imperative. And I feel like that's, the first thing is like, it's not really about going to yoga for because I just kind of feel that it's not about me anymore. It's really not about me, it's not about we, humans, it's about all of us. And so think that commitment to service, that commitment to being on the side of light, recognizing that there is a battle going on, that the forces of dark are active. And like, I don't know, it's time to rally the I hate to use a military metaphor, but in a way it is like that. It's like our Juna and the Bhagavad Gita, which I know you know a ton about Chad, it's like, that's really where we're at. So I'd say commit, finding others who are like minded like hearted and organizing ourselves, and then seeing what action arises from that. And a lot of people are doing that I think people are mobilizing. And I agree that the pandemic, maybe we didn't like leap forward into our new civilization in the way I would have liked. But it definitely lit a fire and so much was born out of this time already. Absolutely. And even my 10 year old, just yesterday, she was saying she's like, you know, I think one of the greatest gifts of this pandemic has been that it's forced a lot of people out of their comfort zones.

Chad Woodford: 1:13:54

Yeah. Yeah. And and to be evaluated to some extent, I think, for a lot of people. Yeah, you're right, though. It's hard to turn. Well, what's the right metaphor? I was gonna say it's hard to turn the giant oil tanker around in two years, but maybe it's hard. It's hard to turn the oil tanker into a beautiful island. But, uh, but yeah, I think it's not like, it wasn't all totally wasted. I mean, I think we, I think a lot did happen, a lot of positive things happen. So. So what you're saying is, if I heard you correctly, is that we should, you know, practice and you know, work on ourselves or whatever that means. Stay connected, be in community and listen, and I know maybe I'm putting some words in your mouth. But yeah, and then just see what the relevant action is at every given moment. So it's, it's this idea that comes from my yoga training where a true yogi is only ever taking spontaneous right action and every moment there's no sort of planning in a sense, right? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, we call that emergence. Yeah. That's the art of emergence.

Schuyler Brown: 1:15:08

Mm hmm. Exactly.

Chad Woodford: 1:15:10

good segue. Yeah, so Okay, so do you want to talk about? You wanna talk about that? I mean, that's your that's your website. That's what you're that's your big, offering your world. And I'd love to hear more about that. And anything else you're working on? I did see that your one thing that caught my eye was the your, like we talked about, you're doing these bond, doulas and over Navaratri, you did the nine goddesses in modular form. And then you're working on possibly a book. So maybe you could talk about that, too?

Schuyler Brown: 1:15:42

Yeah, I'm working on a book about the mandalas...there are them some? Yeah, about that process we described of connecting to nature and making offerings in nature. So that's one project. Another project is a poetry book. So way back in the day, a lot of the female tantrik practitioners were poets. And they wrote in something they call I love this, the Sanskrit word escapes me, but the translation is "Twilight Language," which is so beautiful. And so the idea is that there's there are teachings and transmissions in the poetry, not explicitly, but like, like, in a twilight way, like, in a hidden way, almost. And it's like a sutra. But not, yeah, yeah. And, but but something about the poem form is slightly different than the sutra. It's not so intentionally trying to teach, right? It's trying to impart or give an experience.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:16:51

Right? Well, poetry, my understanding of poetry is that it's intended to convey the ineffable through language or something like that.

Schuyler Brown: 1:17:01

I love that. I love that. And David Whyte is one of my favorites right now. Gosh, the best. Boy, he is good. So anyway, poetry book, so I gotten like, there were many years where I was writing poems, but felt like who wants to read poems, no one reads poems, and I think we're actually coming into a time where people want to read poems. So that's exciting. And then I'm, I have a couple of embodiment courses on offer. And these are pulling from the Tibetan Tantra, some hatha yoga. And then just subtle body work and meditation, shamanic. It's kind of a mix of many practices that I've been pulling together over the last couple years into this practice I call Coming Home, which is just all about descending coming down into the body healing, integrating, and I'm feeling

Jayadev Woodford: 1:18:02

Yeah, yeah. So it's embodied, but it's also holistic,

Schuyler Brown: 1:18:05

right? It's very, yeah, it's holistic. It's heart opening. It's intuition inspiring. It's, it's, it's one of them is about the magic body, which is the bliss body, which is the subtle body. So honing and refining these yogic practices, to well strengthen our subtle body so that we can be more sensitive and be more in touch with the subtle realms and the subtle aspects of life and then feel that magic.

Chad Woodford: 1:18:37

Yeah. Wow. That sounds amazing. And I'll just just say for the listeners, that in my experience, Skylar is a beautiful teacher. So definitely.

Schuyler Brown: 1:18:48

Thank you, Chad. Likewise, I was just sitting here thinking, wow, I should really talk to you about this because you have so many beautiful, so many beautiful and deep practices around the subtle body. Yeah. Also.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:18:59

Yeah, yeah. I'm really grateful to have these practices. Do you want to talk more about what your personal sadhana looks like these days?

Schuyler Brown: 1:19:09

That's a good question. It's very, a lot of meditation. Yeah. I spent many, many years doing a ton of Asana. And now if I have 45 minutes, I'd rather sit for 45 minutes then move. I mean, part of that also is a very active lifestyle here on the farm. I'm walking outside a lot carrying firewood. It's like, I get my exercise. And I know Asana obviously is more than that, but I've been doing the Tibetan yogas. And I've been doing a ton of meditation and a lot of time in nature. That's really the main points.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:19:51

The Tibetan yoga is that mantra-based or what is the No it's

Schuyler Brown: 1:19:55

this nejong, or trukor there. They're these. They're sort of, I mean, they're really beautiful practices, but they're basically exercise. They're opening the channels and moving the winds through the body. So you're getting you're combining Breath and breath retention with some pretty vigorous movement. Yeah, like a lot of kriyas okay, really?

Chad Woodford: 1:20:27

Yeah. Okay.

Schuyler Brown: 1:20:28

Yeah. And, and so, bompachin, which is a lot of rotations, and all of it is clearing the channels. So it looks funny. That's what I was hesitating to say. That all of the quarantine when I had my my 10 year old at home. Yeah, I was doing a lot of these yogas and she was just like, Oh, God, mom.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:20:57

You're one of those mothers.

Schuyler Brown: 1:20:59

Oh, yeah. She was She won't go near yoga. That's funny doing it too much.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:21:06

Yeah, I would say the best practices are the strangest looking, you know? Right.

Schuyler Brown: 1:21:12

Right. That's very good rule of thumb.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:21:15

Yeah, that's strange. That is probably great. Okay, well, I think we've covered a lot of good ground today. Yeah, yeah.

Schuyler Brown: 1:21:23

This has been really fun. Thank you so much. Such a joy to talk to you another yogi.

Chad Woodford: 1:21:27

Yeah, I always enjoy our conversations. And yeah, we define spirituality. We we solved the crisis of humanity. Right. So Right. I think we're good.

Schuyler Brown: 1:21:40

I think we did a pretty good job. All in a day's work.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:21:43

All right. Well, anything else you want to mention before we close? Huh? Hmm.

Schuyler Brown: 1:21:51

I don't think so. I think this was just a really nice comprehensive conversation. And I guess if there's anything, a lot of my thinking comes through my writing. So the Medium posts are a really good way to dig a little deeper into anything that I've said here.

Jayadev Woodford: 1:22:11

yet. I really enjoy those. So I recommend them very much. Yes. Okay. Well, thank you again, Schuyler. And hari om.

Schuyler Brown: 1:22:20

Namaste.